Category Archives: Cryonics

When I first ventured into cryonics, (quite accidentally...I needed a job, SA had an advertisement with the word "perfusion" in it, and their facility just happened to be located near my home), I was acquainted with the notion of "uploading." The idea was presented to me as a method of exending one's life. Being mostly interested in the hypothermic medical techniques that apply to cryonics, and not accepting that one would ever be able to load one's OWN awareness into a machine, (or even another brain, or synthetic version of a brain), I didn't really pay much attention to uploading.

Later, it occurred to me that most of the uploaders were discussing making COPIES of themselves, and some of them thought the copies would actually be the same person as the original, something I found a little too abstract. If I was on my deathbed, and there were a dozen copies of me in the room, I would still be dying. My copies might think they were me, but they never would actually BE me, and once I took my last breath, the real me would still be dead.

These discussions took an even stranger turn, when some of the uploaders discussed existing in some sort of simulation, such as in digital form in a computer. To me, it seemed to be the ultimate in delusional thinking and narcissism. If I was able to upload my personality and memories into a machine, it would still NOT be "me," and the real me would still die at some point not too far in the future, relatively speaking.

I've rarely commented on uploading, until recently, when Cold Filter made the transformation from a cryonics forum, to an uploading forum, and the conversation got really ridiculous, with one CF member insisting a drawing of an hydrogen atom, on a piece of paper, is a REAL hydrogen atom. At that point, it became difficult for me to keep a straight face, and impossible to refrain from commenting.

Though I've read many articles and Internet posts on uploading, I never, NOT EVER, saw even one person describe it as a method to leave memories behind for loved ones...until yesterday. Every word I read, prior to that, seemed, to me, to be nothing more than narcissism. "Fundie" wrote how nice it would be to "...have some remnant copy of the brains of (his) grandparents and other departed loved ones, with which he could interact." I think that's a lovely sentiment, I truly do. I was blessed enough to know my grandparents, and even most of my great-grandparents, very well. In fact, three of my grandparents only recently died, (when I was 48 - 50), so even my youngest child knew them. One of my great-grandparents lived until I was 29, and my daughter, his great-great granddaughter, was six. I wasn't just acquainted with these people; I spent time with them; I knew and loved them. It was one of the great tragedies of my life, when my favorite grandparent, (my mother's mother), died at the age of 69, and I would do anything to have been able to interact with even a copy of her, these last 24 years.

With that said, a copy of her would not be her, any more than her diaries and photos, (things I regularly enjoy), are her. A copy, or simulation, of my grandmother would not be my grandmother, even if it was something I could hug. SHE, (my REAL grandmother), would not be feeling my love for her, and I would know that.

Off and on, for the past decade, or so, I've researched my family tree, and I have a lot of information about relatives who died long before I was born. While there are a few characters I would certainly like to meet, (maybe even if it was just a simulation), just how much time would I be willing to spend with the "dead relatives"? Other than the ones I actually grew up with, probably not much. Of my currently living relatives, I have my parents and step-parents, whom I love as parents. I have three children of my own, a beloved stepson and one grandson, so far. I have five half-siblings, an assortment of step-siblings, and nine nieces and nephews, (a number sure to increase, since some of my half-siblings are much younger than I). I have 11 living aunts and uncles, and 14 first cousins, all who have spouses and children of their own. I love these people and I don't have time to spend with most of them. There are currently 599 people in my family tree, on Ancestry.com. While it's fun to do the research, and to learn the history of some of these people, why would I drag out a simulation of a great-great grandparent I never even met, when I don't have enough time to spread out amongst my living relatives, all of whom I love very much. I probably wouldn't.

Though I found "Fundie's" argument for uploading his personality and memories touching, I think it strayed far from the mainstream uploaders. As I already stated, most uploaders never mention anyone other than themselves, or how they might enjoy living in some virtual world, where they could create simulations of their every desire coming true, ala Edgar Swank. Then, there's Mathew Sullivan, who now seems to want nothing more than a servant, who can anticipate his every need/desire.

I can't imagine that anyone past my grandchildren, will be interested in me, as they will have their own lives and a wealth of LIVING relatives. On a humorous note, I CAN imagine being a computer, sitting around on a desk, getting dusty. and whining about how the great-great-great-grandkids have no interest in me. 😉

While I was impressed with "Fundie's" sentimental rationalization for uploading, yesterday, (see my previous blog entry), I found one of his other arguments completely insane. He was writing in response to my accusations that the personnel of Alcor and Suspended Animation have been falsely presented, to the public, as physicians, something I believe is illegal.

He writes:
"As for the use of words like physician, patient, etc., definitions are *subjective*. Melody may not believe that, but her personal opinion on the subject is not sufficient justification for infringing the liberty of others. Even if the whole of "the medical community" agrees on a definition, that still doesn't make that definition objective. Even if 99.9% of society agrees, that still does not make the definition objective.

I am arguing that people have the right to go to witch doctors if they want to, and to call them doctors if they want to, and Melody has the right to try to persuade them not to, but not to interfere with what they do and say."
http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1287159088/No+response+other+than+more+threats

I'm sure most RATIONAL people see how Fundie's (irrational) rationalization does not apply to my complaint. Yes..."people have the right to go to witch doctors if they want to, and to call them doctors if they want to," BUT those witch doctors had best NOT be presenting themselves as physicians, because that would be illegal. I can call my mechanic "The Car Doctor," or my husband "Doctor Strangelove," if I want to, (just teasing, honey), but those two people cannot go around presenting themselves, or each other, as physicians. There's nothing "*subjective*" about that, the law is very clear.

If Alcor and Suspended Animation want to disclose (in BIG BOLD LETTERS on the home pages of their websites, and the front pages of their legal documents), that most of the people performing their medical procedures have little-to-no formal medical training, and some have nothing more than a high school diploma, and people still want to pay $60,000 to $150,000, (sometimes even more), for one of their procedures, I'm fine with that. Always have been, always will be.

HOWEVER, if Alcor publishes a case report, with photographs of people dressed in surgical garb, performing surgery, and in that case report they list their personnel with titles such as "Chief Surgeon," and "Assistant Surgeon," when the only known degree between those people is a BA in Philosophy, (someone please correct me, if I am wrong, in regard to Michael "Mike Darwin" Federowicz and Jerry Leaf), I say Alcor is attempting to defraud their members and potential members, into believing their personnel are physicians. When Catherine Baldwin describes herself, in a public document, as the "backup surgeon," I believe she is falsely presenting herself as a physician, with the intention of defrauding Suspended Animation's clients and potential clients.

Fundie goes on to ponder whether everyone should agree with my views on same sex marriage, skin graft surgery, and religion, (and he misrepresents my viewpoints on ALL of those issues), it's obvious he's desperately trying to create some sort of distraction, rather than address my accusation of cryonics organizations misrepresenting their personnel as actual medical professionals, when they are not. Fundie REALLY shows his desperation with comments like, "Should we just run everything we do and say by Melody first?" Does Fundie think I don't have a a right to express my viewpoints, on any given topic, and does he really believe I expect everyone to agree with me, on ANY given topic? Not likely. He's just trying to distract from the matter at hand. He KNOWS my complaint is probably valid, and especially of concern to lawmakers and regulators, given that some people associated with the organizations I am complaining about, not only ask for large fees for their shoddy services, but encourage people to leave irrevocable trusts and donate their estates to organizations such as Alcor.

A disproportionate number of cryonicists seem to be suffering from some sort of syndrome that results in them planning to be alive far into the future, without actually accomplishing anything of scientific merit that might provide for that. Like Scarlett O'Hara, they'd rather "think about that tomorrow." Actually, they'd much rather depend on SOMEONE ELSE to think about their problems, tomorrow. (Their "tomorrow" being decades, or hundreds of years, from now.) A significant percentage of these people spend their lives, sitting at their computers, expounding on abstract ideas and patting one another on the back, for accomplishing little more than having vivid imaginations. Interestingly, most of them claim to be atheists, and have dismissed religion as mythological, not realizing they are doling out more faith than most religious zealots.

Want to store 100,000 people in a geodesic dome, at cryogenic temperatures? Just imagine stuffing them in there, with little thought as to how each of them can be maintained, or retrieved without disturbing the others, or what type of cooling system could be used, or how machines could operate in such an extremely cold environment...let the scientists and engineers of tomorrow worry about that. Luke Parrish thinks one can stuff "ten bodies, or 100 heads," in each cubic meter. (This reminds me of stuffing people into phone booths and VW bugs...fun, but not very practical, especially if the goal is to keep all of them at a uniform temperature and to be able to extract one from the middle, without disturbing the others.)

Luke writes: "A cubic meter would hold around 100 heads or 10 bodies. A thousand cubic meters in a cubic shape is just 10x10x10 meters, with 600 square meters. So if the energy cost is $100/month per square meter, 100,000 neuro people could be stored in something costing $60,000/month to run. 60 cents, in other words." http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1256711414/Domes+rock%21

(I think Luke's cost analysis was overly simplistic, to say the least.)

Later, Luke writes about storing "millions of people," in his imaginary cryo-domes, because, according to him, "The fact is it is would be unselfish for everyone to choose cryonics because it would bring down the cost for everyone else. It would be less ecologically damaging because the energy usage per person would be reduced. Compared to burial or cremation, it could actually have a significantly reduced environmental impact." http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1254015159/Millions+of+patients

Oh pooh...Why worry about the environment?...I'm sure the nanobot scientists of the future will take care of that, too.

Want to send laymen with no medical education or experience, whatsoever, to perform advanced medical procedures known to be deadly, when performed improperly? Go ahead, send anyone off the street who volunteers to pretend to be a surgeon or a perfusionist, and let them turn someone's brain into scrambled eggs. Who cares? No need to worry about silly things like subjecting the subjects to inappropriate temperatures and intravascular pressures. The scientists of tomorrow are sure to be willing to spend their lives, (and money), trying to reverse the (most likely irreversible) damage. (Sarcasm, for anyone not familiar with my writing, or my opinions of the way cryonics procedures are carried out.)

I thought the goal of "uploading" was to be able to transcend the (mortal) human body, so that one could live longer, but I guess that hasn't really been the goal, for all cryonicists involved in this little "virtual adventure." It seems Mathew Sullivan simply wants a maid/secretary. Mathew writes the word "avatar" a lot, and mentions games like "Second Life," an Internet game, where one can engage in a fantasy life, selecting the avatar's looks, engaging in virtual shopping and work...heck, one's avatar can even fly! (Is it just me, or is "Second Life" something that seems like it should only be appealing to adolescents? I tried to look up the demographics, but there are conflicting reports and most of them seem more like marketing, than anything else.)

Robert Ettinger and Aschwin de Wolf have warned that associating the medical science aspect of cryonics, with these bizarre futuristic fantasies, may be damaging to the cryonics community. I don't think they realize the people engaged in these discussions want attention, more than success. How else could one explain the same handful of people consistently doling out crackpot ideas, (nearly all of which require a great deal of effort on the part of the scientists of the future), while actually doing nothing to prove those ideas? How many of these people are actually engaging in studying related sciences and/or technologies, (and I don't mean the self-directed, self-evaluated "studying" many cryonicists engage in), compared to the number who are just sitting at their computer monitors, every day, fantasizing about topics they barely understand? These people are not engaging in any sort of meaningful scientific endeavors; they're engaging in make-believe. Twenty years from now, most of them will probably still be sitting at their computers, imagining the scientists of the future are going to be carrying out their fantasies, and still doing NOTHING, in actuality. It's their own little version of "Second Life."

Maybe cryonicists should consider addressing problems that CAN be resolved, in the present, like delivering cryonics providers who can competently perform the surgical procedures the cryonics organizations are marketing. When Luke and his friends can back up their fantasies with theories, and proposed methods of implementation that more than a couple of dozen people will embrace, maybe I'll give their theories some thought. Until then, I'll probably just keep laughing.

"Vitamins and dietary supplements: Get your fill from food instead

"People assume that taking extra Vitamin C will prevent colds or lower their risk of cancer or any other disease. Vitamin supplements have been well studied and it's been concluded that not only are they not good for you but can be harmful if taken in large doses, like Vitamin E. If you look at the consensus papers, they very consistently show that there is no benefit to taking these, but people want to believe otherwise," Dr. Richard A. Baxter, a board certified plastic surgeon in Washington and a contributor to HealthyAging.net.

"The only alternative is a healthy diet with lots of fruits and vegetables. If you believe you need to take antioxidants for your health, you need to get polyphenols from things like blueberries and red wine. You cannot eat a poor diet and make it up with vitamins. The only exception to the rule seems to be Vitamin D."

"Under federal law, the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994, the manufacturer is not required to demonstrate that its product is pure, safe and effective. So consumers beware," says Dr. Gary Wadler, board certified internist practicing on Long Island and an expert on drug use in sports. "Plus, many have interactions with medications that consumers are taking. Because they have interactions, both patients and doctors need to be aware of it. And in my area of sports, athletes are testing positive, because they are taking contaminated dietary supplements."

See full article from WalletPop: http://srph.it/cdEpJB "

(Emphasis added.)

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/10/07/10-drugstore-products-doctors-do-not-recommend/

Ben Best writes:

"David Styles announce the beginning of Eucrio, an organization intended to give Suspended Animation, Inc -like standby/stabilization services to all the countries in the European Union, plus Norway..."

That should scare the hell out of cryonicists across the pond! Suspended Animation has an established history of sending laymen to attempt to perform, (and miserably botch!) advanced medical procedures.

http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/2010/09/partial-review-of-suspended-animations.html
http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/2010/09/catherine-baldwin-just-another.html

"...David has a lot of energy, intelligence, and determination, so if anyone can make this project work, he is one of the few..."
http://www.depressedmetabolism.com/2010/10/11/october-2010-cryonics-symposium-in-germany/

Ben Best has also been a staunch advocate of Suspended Animation, even when others at Cryonics Institute felt he was grossly misrepresenting SA's capabilities, on CI's website.

Styles claims to have medical professionals, ready to perform cryonics procedures, all across Europe, but I've seen NO evidence of that. He certainly is living up to Ben's description as being "Suspended Animation, Inc-like!"

http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/2010/10/impersonating-physician.html
Cryonics Quackery
http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/2010/09/cryonics-quackery-vs-valid-speculation.html

In response to Styles announcement of EUCRIO, one cryonics enthusiast writes:

"Dear David,

I have always been interested in cryonics, so when I read that a new cryonics service provider had been born in Europe I greeted the news with enthusiasm. Then I went to your website and read this:

EUCRIO charges a membership fee of €35/month, and then an extra fee per service, which each will run into the tens of thousands of euros.

Really? Have you done your maths/market research correctly? Let me help you out:

assuming an average remaining lifespan of 50 years (I am 32), my membership expenses will come up to 21,000 euros PLUS "an extra fee per service, which each will run into the tens of thousands of euros". So, say, 30-40000 euros to have someone chop my head off, wrap it in dry ice, and post it to the US, where the storage facility will charge me an additional 80000 dollars to perfuse and store my head. Oh wait, since I won't have been paying my Alcor membership religiously for the previous 50 years (because I was paying EUCRIO's), that's another 25000 dollars 'last minute' fee. Thus, the total price for my suspension will be: 80000 + 25000 + 55000 USD (=40000 euros) = 160000 USD!
You've gotta be kidding.

1) your service is MUCH MORE expensive than Alcor's, which charges 25000 USD for its international stand by/recovery option. Why would anyone choose you, then? If I am run over by a bus, do you really think that my chances of being resucitated will be much higer after my brain has been at room temperature for, say, 5 hours (time that it will take you to fly to where I am in Europe) than 12 hours (time that it will take Alcor to fly to where I am in Europe)?

2) while Alcor have been seen to do what they promise and haggle corpses with hospitals in a few occasions, where's the guarantee that you won't just pack up and disappear? The fact that you mention having at your disposal doctors, technicians, and specialists of all sorts without identifying anyone able to vouch for you, as well as your complete lack of investment in infrastructures (at least Alcor have spent some money on its facilities and equipment) smacks of SCAM SCAM SCAM.

Seriously, do you think people are idiots? Who is your target audience, rational individuals who see potential in the progress of scientific knowledge or impressionalble cult followers?

And even the latter can probably do simple arithmetics and figure out quickly that you are unbelievably expensive (way more than any other provider on the market) and have no credentials whatsoever. You are doing the cryonics movement a disservice and I sincerely hope that you will be exposed soon.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,64749,page=50 (Emphasis added.)

Recent cryonics activities do appear more "cult-like" and "scam-like," than ever before. I hate to say this, but Ben Best seems to be somewhere near the center of it all.

A member of the Cold Filter cryonics forum has spent more than a week, arguing with Mr. Robert Ettinger, (a great mind and the "Father of Cryonics"), about what constitutes a hydrogen atom. Luke Parris seems to be arguing that drawings on paper, or digitalized simulations, can be hydrogen atoms. In some very desperate attempts, he resorts to semantics, arguing that his simulation is "real." He seemed to think Mr. Ettinger would ignore that fact that, while it is a real SIMULATION, it is still NOT a genuine hydrogen atom.

Now, Luke wants to argue that, if he were to visit an alien world, his definition of the word "human" might be different than that of the inhabitants. That's just fantasyland. We're here, on earth, Mr. Ettinger is not an alien, (and neither is Luke, so far as I know), and people attempting to engage in scientific discussion MUST use the accepted definitions of known terms.

Judging by his bizarre arguments, it seems Luke probably thinks that if he draws an atom on a piece of paper, and then rips his drawing in half, he has accomplished nuclear fission, which begs the question, "If Luke tears a stack of drawings of atoms in half, will he blow himself up?"

Luke's entire argument has been BEYOND ridiculous and absurd. Not only that, but he has been disrepectful to Mr. Ettinger, throughout the discussions. The only redeeming features of the discussion have been Mr. Ettinger's arguments, and more than anything, Mr. E's hilarious remarks, (such as calling Luke's argument a "simulation of a discussion." )

Mr. Ettinger says "enough," in response to Luke's total nonsense, and wants to know where he has "failed to make things clear." Mr. Ettinger did not fail; his side of the argument was crystal clear. It is Luke who has failed to comprehend the perfectly clear and logical arguments, presented by Mr. Ettinger.

Luke's entire history of posting, on the Cold Filter forum, has been largely comprised of illogical arguments for far-out ideas. That's the problem with cryonics, too many people are engaging in make-believe, and there's a tremendous deficit of common sense and rational logic.

For anyone who has time to waste, and wants a good laugh, here are links to the discussions:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1286644929/Melody+vs.+Uploading
http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1286907435/Language+vs.+logic
http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1286931141/begging+the+question